Author Topic: Catharism: The "Good Christians"?  (Read 668 times)

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Catharism: The "Good Christians"?
« on: April 03, 2021, 07:25:39 pm »
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Catharism (/ˈkæθərɪzəm/; from the Greek: καθαροί, katharoi, "the pure [ones]")[1][2] was a Christian dualist or Gnostic movement between the 12th and 14th centuries which thrived in Southern Europe, particularly in northern Italy and southern France. Followers were described as Cathars and referred to themselves as Good Christians, and are now mainly remembered for a prolonged period of persecution by the Catholic Church, which did not recognize their unorthodox Christianity. Catharism arrived in Western Europe in the Languedoc region of France in the 11th century. The adherents were sometimes referred to as Albigensians, after the city Albi in southern France where the movement first took hold.[3] The belief may have originated in the Byzantine Empire. Catharism was initially taught by ascetic leaders who set few guidelines and so some Catharist practices and beliefs varied by region and over time. The Catholic Church denounced its practices, including the consolamentum ritual by which Cathar individuals were baptised and raised to the status of "perfect".[4]

Catharism was greatly influenced by the Bogomils of the First Bulgarian Empire,[5] and may have also had roots in the Paulician movement in Armenia and eastern Byzantine Anatolia through Paulicians resettled in Thrace (Philipoupolis). Though the term Cathar (/ˈkæθɑːr/) has been used for centuries to identify the movement, whether it identified itself with the name is debated.[6] In Cathar texts, the terms Good Men (Bons Hommes), Good Women (Bonnes Femmes), or Good Christians (Bons Chrétiens) are the common terms of self-identification.[7]

The idea of two gods or deistic principles, one good and the other evil, was a point of criticism asserted by the Catholic church against Cathar beliefs. The Catholic church asserted this was antithetical to monotheism, a fundamental principle that there is only one God, who created all things visible and invisible.[8] Cathars believed that the good God was the God of the New Testament, creator of the spiritual realm, whereas the evil God was the God of the Old Testament, creator of the physical world whom many Cathars identified as Satan. Cathars believed human spirits were the sexless spirits of angels trapped in the material realm of the evil god, destined to be reincarnated until they achieved salvation through the consolamentum, a form of baptism performed when death is imminent, when they would return to the good God.[9]

From the beginning of his reign, Pope Innocent III attempted to end Catharism by sending missionaries and by persuading the local authorities to act against them. In 1208, Pierre de Castelnau, Innocent's papal legate, was murdered while returning to Rome after excommunicating Count Raymond VI of Toulouse, who, in his view, was too lenient with the Cathars.[10] Pope Innocent III then abandoned the option of sending Catholic missionaries and jurists, declared Pierre de Castelnau a martyr and launched the Albigensian Crusade in 1209. The Crusade ended in 1229 with the defeat of the Cathars. Catharism underwent persecution by the Medieval Inquisition, which succeeded in eradicating it by 1350.

There is academic controversy about whether Catharism was an organized movement or rather a construct of the medieval Church, which alleged the existence of a heretical group. The lack of any central organization among Cathars, regional differences in beliefs and practices as well as the lack of sources from the Cathars themselves has prompted some scholars to question whether Catharism existed. Other scholars say that there is evidence of the existence of Catharism, and also evidence that the threat of it was exaggerated by its persecutors in the Church.[11][12]
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Cosmology

Cathar cosmology identified two twin, opposing deities. The first was a good God, portrayed in the New Testament and creator of the spirit, while the second was an evil God, depicted in the Old Testament and creator of matter and the physical world.[22] The latter, often called Rex Mundi ("King of the World"),[23] was identified as the God of Judaism,[22] and was also either conflated with Satan or considered Satan's father, creator or seducer.[5] They addressed the problem of evil by stating that the good God's power to do good was limited by the evil God's works and vice versa.[24]

However, those beliefs were far from unanimous. Some Cathar communities believed in a mitigated dualism similar to their Bogomil predecessors, stating that the evil god, Satan, had previously been the true God's servant before rebelling against him.[24] Others, likely a majority over time given the influence reflected on the Book of the Two Principles,[25] believed in an absolute dualism, where the two gods were twin entities of the same power and importance.[24]

All visible matter, including the human body, was created or crafted by this Rex Mundi; matter was therefore tainted with sin. Under this view, humans were actually angels seduced by Satan before a war in heaven against the army of Michael, after which they would have been forced to spend an eternity trapped in the evil God's material realm.[5] The Cathars taught that to regain angelic status one had to renounce the material self completely. Until one was prepared to do so, they would be stuck in a cycle of reincarnation, condemned to live on the corrupt Earth.[26]

Zoé Oldenbourg compared the Cathars to "Western Buddhists" because she considered that their view of the doctrine of "resurrection" taught by Christ was similar to the Buddhist doctrine of rebirth.
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Social relationships

Killing was abhorrent to the Cathars. Consequently, abstention from all animal food (sometimes exempting fish) was enjoined of the Perfecti. The Perfecti avoided eating anything considered to be a by-product of sexual reproduction.[39] War and capital punishment were also condemned—an abnormality in Medieval Europe. In a world where few could read, their rejection of oath-taking marked them as rebels against social order.

To the Cathars, reproduction was a moral evil to be avoided, as it continued the chain of reincarnation and suffering in the material world. It was claimed by their opponents that, given this loathing for procreation, they generally resorted to sodomy.[clarification needed] Such was the situation that a charge of heresy leveled against a suspected Cathar was usually dismissed if the accused could show he was legally married.

When Bishop Fulk of Toulouse, a key leader of the anti-Cathar persecutions, excoriated the Languedoc Knights for not pursuing the heretics more diligently, he received the reply, "We cannot. We have been reared in their midst. We have relatives among them and we see them living lives of perfection."[43]
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Role of women and sex

Catharism has been seen as giving women the greatest opportunities for independent action since women were found as being believers as well as Perfecti, who were able to administer the sacrament of the consolamentum.[49]

Cathars believed that one would be repeatedly reincarnated until one commits to the self-denial of the material world. A man could be reincarnated as a woman and vice versa.[50] The spirit was of utmost importance to the Cathars and was described as being immaterial and sexless.[50] Because of this belief, the Cathars saw women as equally capable of being spiritual leaders.[51]

Women accused of being heretics in early medieval Christianity included those labeled Gnostics, Cathars, and, later, the Beguines, as well as several other groups that were sometimes "tortured and executed".
[52] Cathars, like the Gnostics who preceded them, assigned more importance to the role of Mary Magdalene in the spread of early Christianity than the church previously did. Her vital role as a teacher contributed to the Cathar belief that women could serve as spiritual leaders. Women were found to be included in the Perfecti in significant numbers, with numerous receiving the consolamentum after being widowed.[49] Having reverence for the Gospel of John, the Cathars saw Mary Magdalene as perhaps even more important than Saint Peter, the founder of the church.[53]

Catharism attracted numerous women with the promise of a leadership role that the Catholic Church did not allow.[9] Catharism let women become a perfect.[54] These female perfects were required to adhere to a strict and ascetic lifestyle, but were still able to have their own houses.[55] Although many women found something attractive in Catharism, not all found its teachings convincing. A notable example is Hildegard of Bingen, who in 1163 gave a rousing exhortation against the Cathars in Cologne. During this discourse, Hildegard announced God's eternal damnation on all who accepted Cathar beliefs.[56]

While women perfects rarely traveled to preach the faith, they still played a vital role in the spreading of the Catharism by establishing group homes for women.[57] Though it was extremely uncommon, there were isolated cases of female Cathars leaving their homes to spread the faith.[58] In Cathar communal homes (ostals), women were educated in the faith, and these women would go on to bear children who would then also become believers. Through this pattern the faith grew exponentially through the efforts of women as each generation passed.[57]

Despite women having a role in the growing of the faith, Catharism was not completely equal, for example the belief that one's last incarnation had to be experienced as a man to break the cycle.[43] This belief was inspired by later French Cathars, who taught that women must be reborn as men in order to achieve salvation.[9] Another example was that the sexual allure of women impeded man's ability to reject the material world.[43] Toward the end of the Cathar movement, Catharism became less equal and started the practice of excluding women perfects.[9] However, this trend remained limited. (Later Italian perfects still included women.[9])
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism







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rp

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Re: Catharism: The "Good Christians"?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2021, 10:24:58 pm »
Here is an excerpt from a paper I wrote 2 years ago for my philosophy class:

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Regarding the problem of “evil”, I myself am not a theist in the sense that I do not believe in an omnibenevolent creator God. As illustrated in “The ‘Inductive’ Argument from Evil”, there are logical flaws with belief in God. Most theists believe that God is omnipotent as well as omnibenevolent, so why is it that there is so much evil in the world? However, one must remember that the concept of “evil” itself is a moral one as explained by Koukl, so it would be incorrect to assume that these morals come from a place of emptiness. So there appears to be a contradiction, where God is needed to provide a logical explanation for absolute moral concepts (i.e. evil), but also is not capable of stopping evil. I deduce that there may be an explanation for this contradiction; that God may indeed exist, but he is far from the omnibenevolent being that many theists believe him to be. God’s failure to stop evil from occurring despite wielding omnipotent power over his creation can be construed as God himself being evil. This view is not new; Gnostic Christians, for example, conceive of a creator God in the same way that mainline Christians do, but view him as the Devil rather than an omnibenevolent being. Moreover, the very concept of “God” need not be that of the stereotypical caricature of a bearded man in the sky but could alternatively be interpreted as a metaphysical entity that is the cause of evil. This metaphysical entity could be defined as the force that governs the material world, or the “Demiurge” as defined in Gnostic terminology. This “Demiurge” is the cause of all things wrong with the material world that stem from natural causes such as natural disasters, overpopulation, and of course, violence, which stems from the will to survive in a harsh environment. Therefore, it can be said that I accept the existence of a “God”, but my perception of him is different from that of most theists. I view the material world as the epitome of evil for holding humankind imprisoned in a state of perpetual slavery, and that the only way to end this would be to seek salvation in the spiritual world that exists separate from the material world.

The philosophy professor was Jewish BTW. Just thought I should share this.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 07:00:08 pm by rp »
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90sRetroFan

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Re: Catharism: The "Good Christians"?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2021, 12:08:45 am »
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This “Demiurge” is the cause of all things wrong with the material world that stem from natural causes

I would add that "all things wrong" does not only include unpleasant experiences, but also many pleasant experiences that hence persuade people to not want to transcend material existence (despite the unpleasant experiences). If the material world consisted only of unpleasant stuff, there would be plenty of motivation to escape. The Demiurge's cunning is to provide enough pleasant stuff to make it harder for this motivation to ever reach critical mass.

Of course, the pleasure is mostly for those in power. The Demiurge certainly has no problem with those without power (e.g. non-humans) experiencing an existence of nothing but continuous torment (e.g. in meat/egg/milk/fur/etc. factories), because even if they are motivated to escape, humans have already attained enough power over them to physically make it impossible for them to do so (e.g. forced reproduction).

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violence, which stems from the will to survive in a harsh environment.

Not all violence stems from the will to survive in a harsh environment. If this were the case, those whose survival prospects are already secure should never initiate violence. In reality, however, much violence is initiated by the most powerful (whose survival is the most secured)

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Therefore, it can be said that I accept the existence of a “God”, but my perception of him is different from that of most theists

Etymologically, "theism" also comes from the same root you mentioned here:

https://trueleft.createaforum.com/mythical-world/turanian-diffusion/msg6715/#new

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The PIE word for sky father is "dyaus pitr".

So if we believe this guy can be equated with the Demiurge, it would be accurate to call us anti-theists.

In contrast:

https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=god

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Old English god "supreme being, deity; the Christian God; image of a god; godlike person," from Proto-Germanic *guthan (source also of Old Saxon, Old Frisian, Dutch god, Old High German got, German Gott, Old Norse guð, Gothic guþ), which is of uncertain origin; perhaps from PIE *ghut- "that which is invoked"

Unlike the Demiurge whose existence is inferred from the material world, God is someone whom we must postulate from within with no supporting evidence that can be found in the material world.

I also posted a music video for you here:

https://trueleft.createaforum.com/human-evolution/facial-turanism/msg6717/#msg6717
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 12:28:41 am by 90sRetroFan »

rp

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Re: Catharism: The "Good Christians"?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2021, 12:50:28 am »
"I would add that "all things wrong" does not only include unpleasant experiences, but also many pleasant experiences that hence persuade people to not want to transcend material existence (despite the unpleasant experiences). "

I agree. I was more or less referring to all instances of initiated violence when using this phrase. Of course I wouldn't expect a Jew to honestly attempt to understand this, hence why I did not include it in my paper.

"Unlike the Demiurge whose existence is inferred from the material world, God is someone whom we must postulate from within with no supporting evidence that can be found in the material world"

Perhaps the word "intuition" also derives from this concept?
https://www.etymonline.com/word/intuition
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"insight, direct or immediate cognition, spiritual perception,"originally theological,

Proceeding logically from this, we could say the concept of a "Creator God" itself is an oxymoron!
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 11:23:28 am by rp »

rp

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Re: Catharism: The "Good Christians"?
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2021, 11:18:04 am »
"Not all violence stems from the will to survive in a harsh environment. If this were the case, those whose survival prospects are already secure should never initiate violence. In reality, however, much violence is initiated by the most powerful (whose survival is the most secured)"

I see. To support your point, we could take the mythical Garden of Eden, for example, which corresponds with the Natuffian culture where there was an abundance of wild crops such that people no longer needed to hunt. Yet only the Cainites wanted to continue this non-violent lifestyle by becoming full-time cultivators, whereas the Sethites did not as they instead took up herding.

So the Sethites, despite living in a relatively non-harsh environment, chose to do violence anyway. One could explain this away by pointing out how agricultural work involves more labor than herding, and that the Sethites were merely choosing the less laborious occupation out of expedience, but this would beg the question: why did the Cainites choose the more laborious occupation?

Conversely, why did the Sethites prioritize reducing labor in the first place, even at the expense of non-human lives? Perhaps it was the will to survive itself that precluded the Sethites from having the ethical judgment to avoid violence, thus causing them to view non-humans as mere expedient tools for human survival i.e. Goys?

So violence is caused not only by the will to survive in a harsh environment but rather by the will to survive itself for its own sake.

BONUS VIDEO:


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Mary: "Why are you alive?"
John: "I'm alive.. I live.. to safeguard the continuity of this great society. To serve Libria."
Mary: "It's circular. You exist to continue your existence. What's the point?"

More about Equillibrium:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equilibrium_(film)#Plot
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Libria, a totalitarian city-state established by survivors of World War III, blames human emotion as the cause for the war. Any activity or object that stimulates emotion is strictly forbidden. Those in violation are labelled "Sense Offenders" and sentenced to death. The population is forced to take a daily injection of "Prozium II" to suppress emotion. Libria is governed by the Tetragrammaton Council, led by "Father", who communicates propaganda through giant video screens throughout the city.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton
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The Tetragrammaton (/ˌtɛtrəˈɡræmətɒn/) or Tetragram (from Greek τετραγράμματον, meaning "[consisting of] four letters") is the four-letter Hebrew word יהוה‎ (transliterated as YHWH), the name of the national god of Israel.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 06:35:26 pm by rp »

90sRetroFan

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Re: Catharism: The "Good Christians"?
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2021, 10:26:41 pm »
"the will to survive itself for its own sake."

I still disagree. Why do Turanians hunt wild animals recreationally when they already have all the meat they could ever eat from their herds?

"why did the Sethites prioritize reducing labor in the first place"

If reducing labour was what they cared about, why would they bother to go to all the trouble of going on a hunting excursion when they can just slaughter one of their domesticated sheep nearby?

Here is a thought experiment for you: if a random person were magically given immortality, invulnerability and other superpowers (thereby removing all danger to their survival), do you expect them to instantly renounce violence? I, on the other hand, expect them to initiate more violence than they previously would, since they no longer fear the consequences.

My model is the exact opposite of yours: the will to survive is what motivates most people to restrain themselves from initiating most of the violence they would actually like to initiate.

rp

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Re: Catharism: The "Good Christians"?
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2021, 10:45:07 pm »
Now you have me asking the same questions! What is it that motivates Gentiles to commit violence? Simply to affirm their existence and ensure its perpetual continuity, as John Preston says in the Equilibrium clip?

"Here is a thought experiment for you: if a random person were magically given immortality, invulnerability and other superpowers (thereby removing all danger to their survival), do you expect them to instantly renounce violence? I, on the other hand, expect them to initiate more violence than they previously would, since they no longer fear the consequences."

This could explain why immortality is a recurring theme in Proto Indo European mythology. Perhaps the Turanians really were immortal in the sense of having no imminent dangers to their survival.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 11:00:40 pm by rp »

guest5

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Re: Catharism: The "Good Christians"?
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2021, 11:36:58 pm »
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Unlike the Demiurge whose existence is inferred from the material world, God is someone whom we must postulate from within with no supporting evidence that can be found in the material world.

This of course reminds me of my most favorite Gnostic quote of all:
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Omitting to seek after God, and creation, and things similar to these, seek for Him from (out of) thyself, and learn who it is that absolutely appropriates (unto Himself) all things in thee, and says, "My God my mind, my understanding, my soul, my body." And learn from whence are sorrow, and joy, and love, and hatred, and involuntary wakefulness, and involuntary drowsiness, and involuntary anger, and involuntary affection; and if you accurately investigate these (points), you will discover (God) Himself, unity and plurality, in thyself, according to that tittle, and that He finds the outlet (for Deity) to be from thyself. — Monoimus

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This idea resembles the viewpoint of the much later Sufi Ibn Arabi, but no connection between the two is known. The starting point is the ascription in the New Testament of the work of creation to the Son of Man, whence it was inferred that the first principle was properly called Man. It follows that it is a mistake to look for God in creation; we must seek Him in ourselves, and can best find Him by the study of the involuntary operations of our own soul. The relation between the "Man" and "Son of Man" exists from beyond time. The latter is derived from the former, but, it would seem, by an immediate and eternal necessity of His nature, just as from fire is necessarily derived the light which renders it visible. Thus, concerning the first principle, the Scriptures speak both of a "being" and a "becoming" (ēn kai egeneto), the first word properly applying to the "Man," the second to the "Son of Man." in order to illustrate how in this first principle are combined unity and multiplicity, perfect simplicity with the most contradictory attributes, we are referred to the Greek letter ι, the single stroke of which represents units; and which also represents the number ten. Then again from the units all other numbers flow.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoimus

In my own experience you cannot go wrong following in the advice of Monoimus in regards to spirituality.

90sRetroFan

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Re: Catharism: The "Good Christians"?
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2021, 11:57:33 pm »
"What is it that motivates Gentiles to commit violence?"

Because they themselves have been victims of violence. By initiating more violence against new victims than was previously initiated against themselves, they can convince themselves that having once been victims of violence in the past was worth it after all (ie. they still made a net profit). This is the key to how it is possible for people to worship the creator Demiurge. This also explains why the population must keep increasing.

guest5

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Re: Catharism: The "Good Christians"?
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2021, 11:28:18 pm »
I would also add that anyone who tells you not to "hate" has already damned your soul and theirs to be trapped in the Demiurge's realm forever. GOD ABSOLUTELY HATES EVIL, and if you cannot hate evil yourself then you will never find God and are doomed to slavery for all of eternity.

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And learn from whence are sorrow, and joy, and love, and hatred, and involuntary wakefulness, and involuntary drowsiness, and involuntary anger, and involuntary affection; and if you accurately investigate these (points), you will discover (God) Himself, unity and plurality, in thyself.... — Monoimus

And this is how Judeo-Christianity confuses people with it's schizophrenia:


Exodus = Judaism\Old Testament\Tanakh
Luke = Christianity\Teachings of Jesus\New Testament\Gnosis

Jews are clearly taught to honor their parents regardless of how righteous their parents may actually be. Don't fall for this soul trap! If you determine your parents are evil DO NOT honor them!!!

Lastly, by this very teaching in Luke it's easy to see Jesus was NO JEW!

SirGalahad

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Re: Catharism: The "Good Christians"?
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2021, 01:11:33 am »


What do you guys think of this video, and of the general narrative recently put forth by multiple historians that the Cathars never actually existed? I think that their non-existence would be extremely disappointing, but I'm willing to keep an open mind, because obviously I would like people to extend the same courtesy to me and my own viewpoints.

guest55

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Re: Catharism: The "Good Christians"?
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2021, 06:45:17 pm »
This was also just uploaded four days ago:

Who were the Cathars?
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In this video we discuss the famous medieval "heretics" known as the Cathars, and the Albigensian crusade which tried to wipe them out.

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The lens through which we see God – Elohim and Yahweh – a study from Genesis 1 and 2 (Part I)
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Genesis 1 and 2 describe the creation story from two different lenses. In Genesis 1, God the creator is named Elohim, a generic term implying power and judgement. In Genesis 2 we are introduced to God’s name as a tetragrammaton that appears as Lord in our English Bible or in Hebrew, Yahweh or Jehovah. This short video presents a summary of a few Hebraic experts that allow us a view of these two names and the characteristics associated with each. Part II includes a discussion with Steve Staten regarding the impact of these two names on how we individually and the church community think about God and frame our thoughts and actions.






See also: https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/right-left-(judeo-)christian-divergence/

For contrast with other Christians who have rejected Judaism through time:

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...
All visible matter, including the human body, was created or crafted by this Rex Mundi; matter was therefore tainted with sin. Under this view, humans were actually angels seduced by Satan before a war in heaven against the army of Michael, after which they would have been forced to spend an eternity trapped in the evil God's material realm.[5] The Cathars taught that to regain angelic status one had to renounce the material self completely. Until one was prepared to do so, they would be stuck in a cycle of reincarnation, condemned to live on the corrupt Earth.[26]
...
Killing was abhorrent to the Cathars. Consequently, abstention from all animal food (sometimes exempting fish) was enjoined of the Perfecti. The Perfecti avoided eating anything considered to be a by-product of sexual reproduction.
...
https://trueleft.createaforum.com/ancient-world/catharism-the-'good-christians'/

Who truly deserves a good God's favor, those that shed innocent blood for their own benefit and cannot see all  non-humans as people, or those that are willing to shed innocent blood for their own benefit and who refuse to see non-humans as people? Not hard to see why Cathars and other Gnostics would see this world as belonging to the devil...


90sRetroFan

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Re: Catharism: The "Good Christians"?
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2023, 06:04:46 pm »
Humans sacrificing non-humans to earn favour from the Devil is not exclusively Judaic, as we were recently discussing:

https://trueleft.createaforum.com/ancient-world/buddhism/msg22957/#msg22957

Modern Western scientists still do it:

https://trueleft.createaforum.com/mythical-world/turanian-diffusion/msg17790/#msg17790

and are consistently rewarded for doing so with new empirical discoveries:

https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/western-civilization-sustainable-evil/msg14180/?topicseen#msg14180

Sacrificing non-humans really is an effective way of earning favour from the Devil!

(It is equivalent to the intra-human behaviour (that we also frequently observe) of one "non-white" ethnicity trampling on another "non-white" ethnicity (the latter which "whites" have designated as 'lower') to earn favour from "whites" (this really works too!).)

It all falls under:

« Last Edit: October 30, 2023, 06:29:26 pm by 90sRetroFan »