Author Topic: Hyam Maccoby  (Read 113 times)

SirGalahad

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Hyam Maccoby
« on: August 21, 2023, 03:46:47 am »
@90sRetroFan What are your thoughts on Hyam Maccoby? He’s a Jewish scholar that agrees that Paul corrupted Jesus’s teachings, except he comes to the complete opposite conclusion and states that Jesus was an observant Jew who preached to other Jews and never intended to create a religion distinct from Judaism, and that a lot of his teachings supposedly fell in line with the mainstream Judaism of his time. And that it was Paul who chose to bring gentiles into the fold of the religion, and added gentile pagan, as well as Gnostic elements. He goes so far as to say that Paul was a convert to Judaism who followed the religion poorly, or even a gentile who was never Jewish in the first place

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyam_Maccoby

Outside of all his other claims, the claim that Paul was somehow influenced by Gnosticism in the direction that he took Christianity is interesting to me, because it’s also a view point that I see a lot of Gnostics claim online. That Paul was on “our” general side, in that sense. I of course do not believe this.

I see people citing one of Maccoby’s books, “The Mythmaker: Paul and the Invention of Christianity” and some of his other books in places like r/academicbiblical, so I have a feeling that this will be a position that we have to get a grasp of. I was aware of anti-Paul Muslims, as well as our breed of anti-Paulism, but I wasn’t aware that this particular breed of anti-Paulism until just now
« Last Edit: August 21, 2023, 04:16:32 am by SirGalahad »

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90sRetroFan

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Re: Hyam Maccoby
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2023, 04:17:52 am »
Quote
He believed that Jesus was executed as a rebel against the Roman occupation of Judaea. However, he did not claim that Jesus was the leader of an actual armed rebellion. Rather, Jesus and his followers, inspired by the Tanakh or Old Testament prophetic writings, were expecting a supernatural divine intervention that would end Roman rule, restore the Davidic Kingdom with Jesus as the divinely anointed monarch and inaugurate the Messianic age of peace and prosperity for the whole world. Those expectations were not fulfilled, and Jesus was arrested and executed by the Romans.

Looks like an attempt to shift the blame for killing Jesus away from Jews.....

In any case, it is possible technically to argue that Jesus taught Judaism by claiming that all of Jesus' anti-Judaic quotes are fabrications by Paul. But then why are the most clearly anti-Judaic Jesus quotes found in the Apocryphal Gospels ie. the Gospels that Paul decided to exclude from the New Testament? If Paul was a Gnostic whose aim was to dishonestly portray Jesus as a Gnostic teacher, then why not include the Apocryphal Gospels (and if anything exclude Matthew, Mark and Luke instead)?


SirGalahad

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Re: Hyam Maccoby
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2023, 04:36:19 am »
Which apocryphal texts do you think hold the most weight and are worth looking into? As far as I’m aware, a lot of non-Gnostic and Gnostic apocryphal texts were written at later dates compared to the what we now consider the biblical “canon”. So I’d like your input on that, since I haven’t delved all that much into this sort of thing yet


SirGalahad

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Re: Hyam Maccoby
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2023, 08:35:05 am »
Also, another thing: I see a lot of people claiming that Paul was the one who made Christianity a universal religion, and that had he not taken control of the religion, it probably would’ve remained a minor Jewish sect. And on its face, I can see where they’re coming from, because as far as I’m aware, there really isn’t much of Jesus directly preaching to non-Jews in the Bible. Some people point out how a lot of the passages talking about spreading the word to gentiles are from Paul’s texts, or the texts inspired by Paul (and attributed to him pseudepigraphically). The texts that aren’t attributed to Paul or inspired by him, have an awful lot of the “I was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel” talk. It’s kind of hard to ignore the fact that at least in the New Testament, Jesus himself never really mentions preaching to non-Jews, but he DOES explicitly mention preaching to Jews multiple times. The farthest his interactions with non-Jews seem to go, is performing a couple miracles for them here and there.

 I don’t know. I feel like the more I look into this stuff, the less faith that I have that it’s salvageable for us. The closest thing we have to a smoking gun is the Gospel of Thomas. Because it rivals the other canonical gospels in how early it was composed, so it does have credibility to its authenticity. And it’s the only text of its kind that doesn’t reference Judaism and doesn’t seem to be influenced by it. The Gospel of the Holy Twelve, I WANT to believe that it’s authentic, but the backstory behind its existence is kind of sketchy. And even if I WERE to take it at face value, it references Jewish prophets and Jewish laws and doctrines just as much as Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John do.

90sRetroFan

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Re: Hyam Maccoby
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2023, 01:10:16 pm »
"Jesus himself never really mentions preaching to non-Jews, but he DOES explicitly mention preaching to Jews multiple times."

Jesus' main objective was to try to convince Jews that tribalism is wrong. If we believe:

https://trueleft.createaforum.com/ancient-world/gnosticism/msg17903/#msg17903

there would have been no reason for Jesus to feel a particular need to preach to non-Jews, since he would have assumed that they would hear about Buddhism eventually. Had Jesus spent his time preaching to non-Jews, he would have been just one of many Buddhist missionaries. But he estimated that Buddhism would have a harder time penetrating into Jewish society at the time since it would have been dismissed as polytheistic. Thus he deduced that the most efficient use of his time was to preach anti-tribalist ideas to those least likely to otherwise bother to listen to them.

Moreover, Jesus advocated celibacy. Thus by preaching mainly to Jews, he would have (if successful) caused Jews to demographically vanish faster than non-Jews. This is consistent with what we want to happen!

christianbethel

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Re: Hyam Maccoby
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2023, 12:44:44 pm »
Quote
He believed that Jesus was executed as a rebel against the Roman occupation of Judaea. However, he did not claim that Jesus was the leader of an actual armed rebellion. Rather, Jesus and his followers, inspired by the Tanakh or Old Testament prophetic writings, were expecting a supernatural divine intervention that would end Roman rule, restore the Davidic Kingdom with Jesus as the divinely anointed monarch and inaugurate the Messianic age of peace and prosperity for the whole world. Those expectations were not fulfilled, and Jesus was arrested and executed by the Romans.

Looks like an attempt to shift the blame for killing Jesus away from Jews.....

In any case, it is possible technically to argue that Jesus taught Judaism by claiming that all of Jesus' anti-Judaic quotes are fabrications by Paul. But then why are the most clearly anti-Judaic Jesus quotes found in the Apocryphal Gospels ie. the Gospels that Paul decided to exclude from the New Testament? If Paul was a Gnostic whose aim was to dishonestly portray Jesus as a Gnostic teacher, then why not include the Apocryphal Gospels (and if anything exclude Matthew, Mark and Luke instead)?


Why would Matthew, Mark, and Luke be excluded from the New Testament?
« Last Edit: August 22, 2023, 12:50:20 pm by christianbethel »
National Socialism ≠ Nazism

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90sRetroFan

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Re: Hyam Maccoby
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2023, 01:31:59 pm »
In order to remove rivals to John, which is the only one regarded as acceptable to Gnostics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synoptic_Gospels

Quote
The gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke are referred to as the synoptic Gospels because they include many of the same stories, often in a similar sequence and in similar or sometimes identical wording. They stand in contrast to John, whose content is largely distinct.

Recall from main site:

Quote
“We have said various times: we know nothing about what the Cathars were in reality, a sect that appeared in Occitania, along the Catalan Pyrenees, in Carcasonne and other cities of the south. Montsegur was their fortress-temple. Otto Rahn thinks Montsegur was Munsalvaesche, the Castle and Mountain of the Gral. He also claims the Cathars were Druids converted to Manicheanism. They are said to have practiced magic, believe in reincarnation, were vegetarians and had a dualist concept of the world. Among the Gospels they only accepted Saint John. For them the demon was Jehovah, creator Demiurge of this world. None of this is certain, because nothing is known for certain about the Cathars. Otto Rahn believes some troubadours were commissioned by them to spread a certain type of Love initiation in code, that “personal aristocratic religion.” Papal Rome declared the Cathars heretics and ended by annihilating them. Their writings were burned.” – Miguel Serrano

“The struggles and fate of this huge sect of the Cathars had always interested me and, on closer acquaintance, moved me deeply. A queer movement, combining the religious desire for freedom of will and character which was essentially West Gothic, with the late Iranian mysticism that had reached France by way of Italy after the crusaders had come in contact with the Orient. Since the Cathars, that is, the pure ones, wanted to remain Christians, they chose from among the various epistles that of John. Against the religion of the worldly power of the Church of Peter they upheld the teachings of the Baraclete, the Merciful Saviour and God of Mercy. They rejected the Old Testament, avoided the use of any and all Jewish names — a significant attitude, different from that of the later Calvinists and Puritans who also searched for the pure teachings — and shunned even the name of Mary. The crucifix to them appeared an unworthy symbol since, they claimed, nobody would venerate the rope with which a human being, even though he be a martyr, had been hanged.” – Alfred Rosenberg

If Paul was a Gnostic, he should have done the same. He did not because he was not.

christianbethel

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Re: Hyam Maccoby
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2023, 02:13:55 pm »
Hmm. Didn't you mention a while back that everything except the Gospels should be removed from the Bible?
National Socialism ≠ Nazism

Aryan ≠ 'White'.

Race = Quality && Race ≠ Ethnicity.

History is written by the victors.

The truth fears no investigation.

(He) who controls the past controls the future; (he) who controls the present controls the past.

UNITY THROUGH NOBILITY.

90sRetroFan

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Re: Hyam Maccoby
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2023, 02:27:07 pm »
Yes. I never said anything about necessarily keeping all the Gospels.

christianbethel

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Re: Hyam Maccoby
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2023, 02:28:31 pm »
...You said 'Excise everything except the Gospels!' You weren't implying to keep all of them?
National Socialism ≠ Nazism

Aryan ≠ 'White'.

Race = Quality && Race ≠ Ethnicity.

History is written by the victors.

The truth fears no investigation.

(He) who controls the past controls the future; (he) who controls the present controls the past.

UNITY THROUGH NOBILITY.

90sRetroFan

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Re: Hyam Maccoby
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2023, 02:47:15 pm »
First excise everything except the Gospels, then figure out what to do with what remains.

christianbethel

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Re: Hyam Maccoby
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2023, 02:49:03 pm »
OK, when you put it that way, it makes sense. Be clearer next time!
National Socialism ≠ Nazism

Aryan ≠ 'White'.

Race = Quality && Race ≠ Ethnicity.

History is written by the victors.

The truth fears no investigation.

(He) who controls the past controls the future; (he) who controls the present controls the past.

UNITY THROUGH NOBILITY.