Author Topic: Western Civilization is UGLY  (Read 5593 times)

90sRetroFan

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Re: Western Civilization is UGLY
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2021, 01:54:10 am »
And matching Western classical music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNNP_4TYnV4

90sRetroFan

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Re: Western Civilization is UGLY
« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2021, 04:44:45 am »
OLD CONTENT

While in previous posts we have already encountered these in passing, in this post I want to focus on the ugliness of Western picture/mirror frames. Considering that a frame's function is merely to present the picture, there is even less excuse for the frame to itself be elaborate, and hence post-Renaissance frames become some of the most undeniable examples of Western tastelessness:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picture_frame#History

Quote
the Italian Renaissance of the 14th and 15th centuries saw the rise of arts patrons extending beyond the church. Wealthy nobles such as the Medici family could now bring art and frames into their estate by commissioning allegorical, devotional and portrait paintings.[4] This was the advent of the portable or moveable frame.[5]

























































































While the frames around the landscape etc. pictures are bad enough, I find the frames around the portraits especially poignant: a perfect representation of Westerners surrounded with an aura of their own hubris.

Last but not least:






SirGalahad

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Re: Western Civilization is UGLY
« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2021, 08:54:19 pm »
@90sRetroFan Being exposed to Aryanism for long while now, I've developed quite an eye for all the aesthetic elements that make western civilization inferior. One thing that eludes me though, is western music. I know you've spoken positively of Richard Wagner's music, and his music is orchestral/operatic. In what qualities do western orchestral and non-orchestral music differ? (outside of the fact that western orchestral/operatic music starts out with an idea of making orchestral music, whereas in your view, non-western orchestra would be the reverse) <-- Also, does this apply to other genres? If I decide that I want to make rock music specifically, or metal music, or 80s-style synth music, or folk music, or jazz, and piggyback off that idea, would it make that kind of music inferior in the same way that you deem western orchestra inferior?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2021, 09:08:09 pm by SirGalahad »

90sRetroFan

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Re: Western Civilization is UGLY
« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2021, 11:50:06 pm »
"I know you've spoken positively of Richard Wagner's music"

Can you point to a specific quote? As far as I can remember, my main positive statements about Wagner consisted of pointing out Nietzsche's dislike of Wagner and siding with Wagner over Nietzsche. From the main site:

Quote
Hitler’s other great influence was Wagner (himself a Schopenhauer disciple, by no coincidence), to the extent that he said: “Whoever wants to understand National Socialism must first know Wagner.” Nietzsche, in contrast, held a negative opinion of both Wagner and Schopenhauer (“The unworthy attempt has been made to see Wagner and Schopenhauer as types of mental illness: one would gain an incomparably more essential insight by making more precise scientifically the type of decadence both represent.” – Friedrich Nietzsche)

This is more about the storylines of Wagner's operas (which express nostalgia for pre-Renaissance times, something which we also encourage) than about the music (which is clearly in the Western classical tradition, a product of the Renaissance, and hence aesthetically contradictory). If I have said anything else about Wagner that I might have forgotten about, please link to it so I can clear things up.

"orchestral"

The issue is not orchestration. In this topic I have also posted examples of solo instrumental:

https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/western-civilization-is-ugly-48/msg3981/#msg3981

https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/western-civilization-is-ugly-48/msg4255/#msg4255

and choral:

https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/western-civilization-is-ugly-48/msg3962/#msg3962

Western classical music. The issue is that, whatever is used to produce the sound, the sound itself is valued by its complexity. In our enemies' words:

https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2019/07/01/triggered-by-bach-classical-music-as-implicit-white-supremacy/

Quote
The superiority of Western classical music is so decisive one could almost rest the argument for the superiority of Western culture on it alone. There exists a hierarchy in the world of sound, as in other phenomena. Noise occupies the lowest rung in this hierarchy; it is an undifferentiated mass of sound in which no distinction exists. The lowest kind of music, say that of Australia’s Aborigines, most closely corresponds to noise. Western classical music, by contrast, exists on the highest rung because it apprehends sound in the most highly differentiated way possible. It is the farthest from noise and most fully exploits the inherent potential of the world of sound.

The part in bold is what in our ears makes Western classical music ugly. I have described this tendency (common to Western sensory stimulation disciplines) as the compulsion to fill space, which is easiest to point out in visual artworks but is just as true of musical compositions. Anything "fully exploited" is always ugly, as it reflects the ugly temperament of the exploiter.

"I've developed quite an eye for all the aesthetic elements that make western civilization inferior. One thing that eludes me though, is western music."

Setting aside superiority/inferiority for a moment, would you at least agree that Western classical music and Western architecture/painting/fashion/etc. are products of the same collective consciousness? To put it simply, would you agree that Western classical music are a perfect fit with the other forms of the same overall culture? For example, here is a scene packed with post-Renaissance elements:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTCPZmmSLqQ

Would you agree everything fits together like a jigsaw puzzle, including the BGM?

If you do not agree, then can you find a stylistically non-Western track that you would consider a more fitting BGM for the same scene?

But if you do agree, then since you say you like the music, in order for you to be aesthetically consistent you should like the other stuff too! Do you?

"If I decide that I want to make rock music specifically, or metal music, or 80s-style synth music, or folk music, or jazz, and piggyback off that idea, would it make that kind of music inferior in the same way that you deem western orchestra inferior?"

No, this is not my position (even for Western classical music). What makes rock etc. preferable is that they do not, in our enemies' words, "fully exploit the inherent potential of the world of sound". But if you decide you want to push the limits of rock until it exploits the inherent potential of the world of sound even more than Western classical music does, then THAT would make your music inferior. I would then call it "Western rock music".
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 12:46:10 am by 90sRetroFan »

SirGalahad

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Re: Western Civilization is UGLY
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2021, 07:40:44 pm »
"This is more about the storylines of Wagner's operas (which express nostalgia for pre-Renaissance times, something which we also encourage) than about the music (which is clearly in the Western classical tradition, a product of the Renaissance, and hence aesthetically contradictory)."

Ah, okay. Yeah, that makes sense. You should mention this as a disclaimer in your article pertaining to the arts. I interpreted the section on Wagner, as an endorsement of the music itself

"To put it simply, would you agree that Western classical music are a perfect fit with the other forms of the same overall culture?"

Absolutely.

"But if you do agree, then since you say you like the music, in order for you to be aesthetically consistent you should like the other stuff too! Do you?"

Actually, I never listen to classical music because I find it boring and generic. However, I will admit that I enjoy Wagner's stuff more, in comparison to most other classical music I've experienced. How much of this can be chalked up to conflicting blood memory, and how much of it can be chalked up to my personal bias towards Arthurian legend, as well as towards anything that influenced/was influenced by Aryanism (in this case, Schopenhauer and Wagner), I'm not exactly sure. As for the western elements outside of music, I admire simplicity, in many contexts. For example, I find Pueblo architecture quite beautiful. And I would never consider any of the examples provided here of Aryan aesthetics, "ugly". But I think that if I scrubbed my brain clean of what I've learned from the main site, then I would also appreciate pieces of art and architecture that would be considered non-Aryan. A lot of the examples of western aesthetics shown on here though, are so overly ornate that even I find them hideous

It would be interesting if all Aryanists had to take a test to discern what exactly they find the most appealing in music, art, and architecture, PRIOR to joining the movement and being exposed to our values. A test where the test taker is provided various visual (and auditory) examples of all kinds of art and architecture, and is then asked to choose which they find the most appealing out of each set. Because humans are quite flexible, in the sense that they can mold their tastes to whatever they perceive as the taste of the "dominant" culture. I myself feel that my tastes have skewed somewhat, since becoming an Aryanist
« Last Edit: May 08, 2021, 07:49:39 pm by SirGalahad »

90sRetroFan

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Re: Western Civilization is UGLY
« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2021, 12:56:19 am »
"A lot of the examples of western aesthetics shown on here though, are so overly ornate that even I find them hideous"

Another way to describe Western aesthetics is as more adultlike. This is clearly the case for painting, as young children spontaneously draw in 2D:



and non-Western painting is mostly 2D, whereas Western painting tries to be as 3D as possible:

https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/western-civilization-is-ugly-48/msg3980/#msg3980

But I would say the same is true of other forms. For example, you say:

"I find Pueblo architecture quite beautiful."

but would you furthermore agree that it is more childlike?

https://www.cardcow.com/images/set655/card00864_fr.jpg

Conversely, would you agree that Western architecture is by far the most adultlike?

https://daytonperformingarts.org/wp-content/uploads/1920_A_Performance_Images/1920_A_OP4_Baroque.jpg

I believe that Western civilization considers itself superior to non-Western civilizations in the same sense that adults consider themselves superior to children. And just as children have been mostly conditioned to agree that adults really are superior by accepting the adult standards of superiority, non-Western civilizations have similarly been mostly conditioned to agree that Western civilization is superior by accepting Western standards of superiority. Only we can see that the truth is the complete opposite. This:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho9rZjlsyYY

is inferior to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-R8kWA6jItE

"It would be interesting if all Aryanists had to take a test to discern what exactly they find the most appealing in music, art, and architecture"

Let's not forget faces. (I haven't heard much from you on this either. You are welcome to contribute here:

https://trueleft.createaforum.com/human-evolution/re-sexual-dimorphism-preferences/ )

I never cease to be amused at the sheer consistency of our enemies' bad taste:

https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/homo-hubris/msg5054/#msg5054

https://trueleft.createaforum.com/true-left-vs-right/homo-hubris/msg5056/#msg5056

This goes all the way back to the old days when I was trying to mock them:

http://aryanism.net/blog/aryan-sanctuary/its-not-that-difficult/comment-page-2/#comment-172405

Quote
“Okay. So many Scandinavians and so forth are not considered “Aryan”..”

Do these look like Aryan faces to you, you moron?

http://cdn3.modelsrating.com/sites/default/files/models/other_photos/Elsa_Hosk_43.jpg

https://s9.postimg.org/q97wptwdr/Mini_Anden_June09.jpg

http://www2.pictures.stylebistro.com/gi/Caroline+Winberg+Updos+Messy+Updo+aQr7rT74ApWx.jpg

http://www.ballade.no/wp-content/uploads/2007/01/fot2007010913085993740444_monica1.jpg

http://www.theplace2.ru/archive/anita_briem/img/AnitaBriem_Premiere_.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/Lindsey_Vonn_2011.jpg/729px-Lindsey_Vonn_2011.jpg

and the idiot literally didn't get my point:

http://aryanism.net/blog/aryan-sanctuary/its-not-that-difficult/comment-page-2/#comment-172432

Quote
Absolutely.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2021, 03:15:09 am by 90sRetroFan »

Zea_mays

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Re: Western Civilization is UGLY
« Reply #51 on: May 09, 2021, 01:49:55 am »
Regarding music, much of what is called Western "Classical music" are actually Romantic era compositions, which proceeded what academics classify as Western "Classical music". For example, Beethoven, Mozart, and many other famous composers wrote in the Romantic era and began to aim for more emotionally-moving pieces in the overall style of Romanticism, compared to previous Western compositions. Wagner is also among those who composed in the "Romantic era" of music.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism#Music
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romantic_composers

It was during this era the first equivalent to "rock stars" emerged, as well:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisztomania

Not to defend this style of music, since anyone who has listened to rock and roll music of the Counterculture can see it much better expresses the Romanticist spirit than the complex 1800s compositions. But I just thought I would add this for the sake of discussion.


-----

Quote
Another way to describe Western aesthetics is as more adultlike.

And even when adults try try to act spontaneous, carefree, silly, or otherwise imitate the "foolishness" of childishness, they often end up just acting like completely retarded cavemen:

!Warning, extremely disgusting examples of Western high art! Watch at least one of these all the way through if you can stomach it. (copy-paste the links, because they automatically embed here and are too disgusting for that, quite frankly).

youtube.com/watch?v=MBdR98xE0Sw
youtube.com/watch?v=At-bsJqEFmU
youtu.be/cAtazIk1IYw?t=350
youtube.com/watch?v=wxCsB8ZaUIE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkSADcoDPXM
youtube.com/watch?v=FNdyDazu3V4


(Btw consider that the person who makes these videos is probably more popular (judging by number of subscribers) and more financially successful than 99% of Renaissance and "Classical era" Western artists ever were during their lifetimes).

90sRetroFan

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Re: Western Civilization is UGLY
« Reply #52 on: May 09, 2021, 02:28:49 am »
"And even when adults try try to act spontaneous, carefree, silly, or otherwise imitate the "foolishness" of childishness, they often end up just acting like completely retarded cavemen:"

This is a really good point. When as a child I watched children's TV, I was struck by how patronizing most of the presenters were by trying to talk/act childish superficially. Do they really think children enjoy watching them behave like that?

(Similarly, this is why cultural appropriation is annoying.)

rp

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Re: Western Civilization is UGLY
« Reply #53 on: May 09, 2021, 05:47:14 am »
That guy behind the "How to Basic" channel really is an obnoxious fellow. Constantly wasting resources and making a mess in order to impressive his primitive viewers who get off on that kind of stuff.

90sRetroFan

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Re: Western Civilization is UGLY
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2021, 02:31:25 am »
Today let's look at the ugliness of the following uniquely Western product:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lace

Quote
Lace was used by clergy of the early Catholic Church as part of vestments in religious ceremonies. When they first started to use lace and through the 16th century, they primarily used cutwork. Much of their lace was made of gold, silver, and silk. Rich people began to use such expensive lace in clothing trimmings and furnishings such as cushion covers. Dante and other writers of the period noted the change from simple clothing to extravagance. ... lace did not come into widespread use until the 16th century in the northwestern part of the European continent.[11] The popularity of lace increased rapidly and the cottage industry of lace making spread throughout Europe.The late 16th century marked the rapid development of lace, both needle lace and bobbin lace became dominant in both fashion as well as home décor.

As if the wallpapers (see earlier post) weren't bad enough:













































































Possibly nothing else captures the Western impulse to fill space as well as lace does. Not only do they try to fill the entire space of each piece of fabric with pattern, but on a macro level they are clearly trying to fill the configuration space of possible fabric patterns! (Remember the myth of Arachne competing against Athena in weaving? Arachne's cloth probably looked like the above, whereas Athena's cloth probably looked like this: https://5.imimg.com/data5/UU/QH/MY-70893653/white-linen-fabric-500x500.jpg which is what cloth is meant to look like. But since the winner was decided by popular vote, we all know how that ended.....)

Lace applications:





















































Accompanying Western classical music (audial lace?):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWxPSnGoPG8
« Last Edit: May 11, 2021, 03:35:32 am by 90sRetroFan »

90sRetroFan

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Re: Western Civilization is UGLY
« Reply #55 on: May 13, 2021, 01:32:28 am »
Multimedia Homo Hubris aesthetics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hTvc3f83Ws





guest5

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Re: Western Civilization is UGLY
« Reply #56 on: May 13, 2021, 09:01:03 pm »
I had to laugh the other day as my mother told me how my niece started crying when my step-father walked into the room and tried to play with her. Eventually, he figured out it was his checkered-shirt that was making her cry.  He left the room, changed his shirt, and when he came back she smiled at him. She is only a little over 1 year old. I found it interesting because it shows even very young children can find hectic clustered patterns overwhelming. The checkered pattern on clothing is not Western, this I know, but I couldn't help think of that incident with my niece when I was looking at these lace patterns you posted.

rp

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« Last Edit: May 15, 2021, 02:48:36 am by rp »


Zea_mays

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Re: Western Civilization is UGLY
« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2021, 10:03:36 pm »
Speaking of dance, here is a quote from an anthropologist writing in the year 1900. He speaks very highly about dancing as an art form, and basically says Western forms of dance are inferior to African and other "non-white" cultures.

When I read this the first time it stood out to me and I remember thinking the way he spoke of dance made it seem like he viewed it as the highest art form. Maybe I am misremembering, but I seem to recall Deniker or some other anthropologist from this time period explicitly saying how dull and inferior the Western waltz dance style was compared to non-Western dances.

As a professional academic from 1900, he is using typical Western language, but we can see the point he is trying to make:

Quote
Dancing. — The productions of the graphic arts charm the eye after completion; those of the musical arts are enjoyed only while being performed. But there is an art which combines these two modes of aesthetic enjoyment: it is dancing. Its plastic attitudes are so many pictures, and its movements have a rhythm like music.

This art, sunk among civilised peoples to the level of a simple amusement, plays a large part in the life of uncultured peoples.
[...]
Let us also note that these dances are to the discipline of the elders in order to afford pleasure to the people of their tribe. The joy, moreover, is mutual, for the performers "feel" the dance without seeing it, and the effects of movement.

Dancing is then a great school of "solidarity" in primitive societies; more than any other act, it brings into prominence the benefits of sociality. But this favourable result is only possible in the smaller groupings, in which at least half of the society may take part in the dance; this condition no longer exists in civilised societies, numbering millions on millions of members: thus in these societies the choregraphic art is in a complete state of decay.
-Joseph Deniker (1900).

So, according to him, these non-Western societies are "uncultured" and "uncivilized", yet possess more laudable art than Western societies.  ;D