Author Topic: Drafting up a Jamia  (Read 1189 times)

SirGalahad

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Drafting up a Jamia
« on: June 05, 2021, 08:50:10 pm »
I've taken it upon myself to see how far I can get with drafting up a "Jamia" by compiling the various canonical and non-canonical texts of both Christianity and Islam and comparing them. I've decided that I would start this thread, so I can post updates. Already, I'm running into major problems:

I've looked into the Gospel of the Holy Twelve and the Gospel of Barnabas. While I haven't read through them in their entirety yet, the fact that both of them mention and praise Abrahamic prophets, as well as affirm the law of the Old Testament, doesn't bode well. In one part of the Gospel of Barnabas, Jesus asserts that dogs are better than uncircumcised men (an Abrahamic view, with a little bit of subtle anthropocentrism sprinkled on top). I was hoping that I would find at least a couple of texts that refrain from connecting back to the Old Testament, but even the texts that are praised the most on the main site and forum do this. The only text that isn't explicitly Abrahamic is the Gospel of Thomas, which doesn't really mean much since the Gospel of Thomas is a sayings gospel. It doesn't have a narrative. I'm a Gnostic myself, so it pains me to say that I now realize why the Gnostics were criticized so heavily back in the day. Every single text that I can find which is supposed to salvage Gnostic belief, connects back to the Old Testament, and thus reaffirms the Judeo-Christian narrative instead. The gnostic texts that do fit our criteria, were composed centuries after Jesus's death, and usually have complex, off-the-wall narratives that make it clear that they're deriving influence from outside of Christianity. I was particularly excited to crack open the Gospel of the Holy Twelve since I myself am vegan, only to end up disappointed when I actually read through some of it. Similar disappointment with the Gospel of Barnabas, which was supposed to connect Christianity back to Islam. (Speaking of Islam, another side note. What are we to make of the core narrative that Mohammed received his first revelation when he was visited by the angel Gabriel? Gabriel is an angel from the Old Testament, and is revered in Judaism.)

I would appreciate any input. It's just frustrating, because right now, it's basically impossible for me to argue that Jesus's original intention was to directly oppose the beliefs of the Old Testament, as well as its god. I would definitely lose that debate to any Judeo-Christian at least semi-knowledgeable when it comes to their faith.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 08:57:17 pm by SirGalahad »

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90sRetroFan

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Re: Drafting up a Jamia
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2021, 11:27:17 pm »
I am not sure why you are looking at the Apocryphal Gospels as part of the Jamia project. I am not saying you shouldn't look at those Gospels, but this should be a different project. The Jamia project is strictly about retrieving authentic Mohammedanism.

I would be happy to discuss both projects with you, but please start another topic for the other project so that they can be dealt with separately, or else it will get really confusing fast. Alternatively, if you simply want to discuss the Apocryphal Gospels, you are welcome to use this topic:

https://trueleft.createaforum.com/ancient-world/the-sacred-and-apocryphal-texts/
« Last Edit: June 05, 2021, 11:32:27 pm by 90sRetroFan »

christianbethel

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Re: Drafting up a Jamia
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2022, 12:34:53 pm »
I've taken it upon myself to see how far I can get with drafting up a "Jamia" by compiling the various canonical and non-canonical texts of both Christianity and Islam and comparing them. I've decided that I would start this thread, so I can post updates. Already, I'm running into major problems:

I've looked into the Gospel of the Holy Twelve and the Gospel of Barnabas. While I haven't read through them in their entirety yet, the fact that both of them mention and praise Abrahamic prophets, as well as affirm the law of the Old Testament, doesn't bode well. In one part of the Gospel of Barnabas, Jesus asserts that dogs are better than uncircumcised men (an Abrahamic view, with a little bit of subtle anthropocentrism sprinkled on top). I was hoping that I would find at least a couple of texts that refrain from connecting back to the Old Testament, but even the texts that are praised the most on the main site and forum do this. The only text that isn't explicitly Abrahamic is the Gospel of Thomas, which doesn't really mean much since the Gospel of Thomas is a sayings gospel. It doesn't have a narrative. I'm a Gnostic myself, so it pains me to say that I now realize why the Gnostics were criticized so heavily back in the day. Every single text that I can find which is supposed to salvage Gnostic belief, connects back to the Old Testament, and thus reaffirms the Judeo-Christian narrative instead. The gnostic texts that do fit our criteria, were composed centuries after Jesus's death, and usually have complex, off-the-wall narratives that make it clear that they're deriving influence from outside of Christianity. I was particularly excited to crack open the Gospel of the Holy Twelve since I myself am vegan, only to end up disappointed when I actually read through some of it. Similar disappointment with the Gospel of Barnabas, which was supposed to connect Christianity back to Islam. (Speaking of Islam, another side note. What are we to make of the core narrative that Mohammed received his first revelation when he was visited by the angel Gabriel? Gabriel is an angel from the Old Testament, and is revered in Judaism.)

I would appreciate any input. It's just frustrating, because right now, it's basically impossible for me to argue that Jesus's original intention was to directly oppose the beliefs of the Old Testament, as well as its god. I would definitely lose that debate to any Judeo-Christian at least semi-knowledgeable when it comes to their faith.

Didn't you know? Gnostic Christianity originated from Jewish mysticism! Now we have to carefully scrutinize the Gnostic text and excise anything related to Judaism.
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christianbethel

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Re: Drafting up a Jamia
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2022, 03:54:32 pm »
I've taken it upon myself to see how far I can get with drafting up a "Jamia" by compiling the various canonical and non-canonical texts of both Christianity and Islam and comparing them. I've decided that I would start this thread, so I can post updates. Already, I'm running into major problems:

I've looked into the Gospel of the Holy Twelve and the Gospel of Barnabas. While I haven't read through them in their entirety yet, the fact that both of them mention and praise Abrahamic prophets, as well as affirm the law of the Old Testament, doesn't bode well. In one part of the Gospel of Barnabas, Jesus asserts that dogs are better than uncircumcised men (an Abrahamic view, with a little bit of subtle anthropocentrism sprinkled on top). I was hoping that I would find at least a couple of texts that refrain from connecting back to the Old Testament, but even the texts that are praised the most on the main site and forum do this. The only text that isn't explicitly Abrahamic is the Gospel of Thomas, which doesn't really mean much since the Gospel of Thomas is a sayings gospel. It doesn't have a narrative. I'm a Gnostic myself, so it pains me to say that I now realize why the Gnostics were criticized so heavily back in the day. Every single text that I can find which is supposed to salvage Gnostic belief, connects back to the Old Testament, and thus reaffirms the Judeo-Christian narrative instead. The gnostic texts that do fit our criteria, were composed centuries after Jesus's death, and usually have complex, off-the-wall narratives that make it clear that they're deriving influence from outside of Christianity. I was particularly excited to crack open the Gospel of the Holy Twelve since I myself am vegan, only to end up disappointed when I actually read through some of it. Similar disappointment with the Gospel of Barnabas, which was supposed to connect Christianity back to Islam. (Speaking of Islam, another side note. What are we to make of the core narrative that Mohammed received his first revelation when he was visited by the angel Gabriel? Gabriel is an angel from the Old Testament, and is revered in Judaism.)

I would appreciate any input. It's just frustrating, because right now, it's basically impossible for me to argue that Jesus's original intention was to directly oppose the beliefs of the Old Testament, as well as its god. I would definitely lose that debate to any Judeo-Christian at least semi-knowledgeable when it comes to their faith.

What books are you using?
When in doubt, use the 16 Words: 'We must Engineer the Destruction of Western Civilization and Tribalism, and Unite All Races Through Nobility.'

Aryan ≠ 'White'.

History is Written by the Victors.

He Who Controls the Past Controls the Future; He Who Controls the Present Controls the Past.

christianbethel

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How do we find the good passages in the Quran and separate them from all the rest?
When in doubt, use the 16 Words: 'We must Engineer the Destruction of Western Civilization and Tribalism, and Unite All Races Through Nobility.'

Aryan ≠ 'White'.

History is Written by the Victors.

He Who Controls the Past Controls the Future; He Who Controls the Present Controls the Past.

90sRetroFan

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Re: Drafting up a Jamia
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2022, 08:11:33 pm »
http://aryanism.net/blog/aryan-sanctuary/dutch-election-2017/comment-page-1/#comment-174466

Quote
You can probably already guess the broad idea:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_prophets_of_Abrahamic_religions

Basically, whoever appears in Column 1 must be removed from Column 3.

Those who remain in Column 3 after this must also be removed if they (e.g. Luqman) display more qualitative similarity to Column 1 people.

Due to the new layout of the Wikipedia page, ignore the Column numbers given above. Instead, whoever appears under the "Judaism" column must be removed from the "Islam" column. Therefore all passages in the Koran referring to the prophets which we have removed can be removed also. Once you have finished this, I will let you know the next step.

Where the work was left off:

http://jamiaproject.wordpress.com/

christianbethel

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Re: Drafting up a Jamia
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2022, 11:28:49 am »
I would like to contribute to this project to the best of my ability. Tell me what you need me to do.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 11:31:12 am by christianbethel »
When in doubt, use the 16 Words: 'We must Engineer the Destruction of Western Civilization and Tribalism, and Unite All Races Through Nobility.'

Aryan ≠ 'White'.

History is Written by the Victors.

He Who Controls the Past Controls the Future; He Who Controls the Present Controls the Past.

90sRetroFan

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Re: Drafting up a Jamia
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2022, 08:05:33 pm »
What I said in the previous post:

Quote
whoever appears under the "Judaism" column must be removed from the "Islam" column. Therefore all passages in the Koran referring to the prophets which we have removed can be removed also.

Start a new blog and post the link here so that we can keep track of your progress. Post on the blog each passage you have removed.

christianbethel

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Re: Drafting up a Jamia
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2022, 09:19:51 pm »
Do you mind if I use the blog I already have? It already contains revisionist material.

Update: Which English translation of the Quran should I use?

Update: At present this is the list of prophets I have compiled from the aforementioned Wikipedia page. Please notify me of any outliers that need to be removed or omissions that need to be added:

True Prophets

Druze
  • Zoroaster
  • Akhenaten
  • St. George?
  • al-Yafuri
  • Pythagoras
  • Empedocles
  • Plato
  • Socrates
  • Jesus
  • Luke
  • Matthew
  • Mark
  • Democrates
  • Muhammad
  • Salman al-Farsi
  • Ali
  • al-Hakim
  • Hamza
  • Muhammad ibn Wahb al-Qurashi
  • Abuíl-Khayr Salama ibn Abd al-Wahhab al-Samurri
  • Ismaíll ibn Muhammad at-Tamimi
  • Baha al-Din
  • Ad-Darazi

Islam
  • Salih
  • al-Khidr
  • Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha)
  • The Virgin Mary
  • John the Baptist
  • Jesus
  • Muhammad

Christianity
  • John the Baptist
  • Jesus
« Last Edit: May 22, 2022, 09:44:18 pm by christianbethel »
When in doubt, use the 16 Words: 'We must Engineer the Destruction of Western Civilization and Tribalism, and Unite All Races Through Nobility.'

Aryan ≠ 'White'.

History is Written by the Victors.

He Who Controls the Past Controls the Future; He Who Controls the Present Controls the Past.

90sRetroFan

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Re: Drafting up a Jamia
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2022, 10:04:24 pm »
"Do you mind if I use the blog I already have?"

It would be neater to start a new one. But if for some reason you cannot, I'd rather you just use this topic, purely in order to avoid mixing up content.

"Which English translation of the Quran should I use?"

Any, as long as you use the same one for the entire project and state clearly which one you are using.

christianbethel

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Re: Drafting up a Jamia
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2022, 10:08:39 pm »
And how is the list? Who needs to be added/removed?
When in doubt, use the 16 Words: 'We must Engineer the Destruction of Western Civilization and Tribalism, and Unite All Races Through Nobility.'

Aryan ≠ 'White'.

History is Written by the Victors.

He Who Controls the Past Controls the Future; He Who Controls the Present Controls the Past.

90sRetroFan

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Re: Drafting up a Jamia
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2022, 10:17:12 pm »
I don't understand how the "Druze" and "Christianity" sections are relevant to this project. Just use the "Islam" section and you should be fine.

christianbethel

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Re: Drafting up a Jamia
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2022, 08:19:50 am »
I was just using the Wikipedia list to which you directed me; the one where 'every prophet listed in Column One must be removed from Column Three.'

Update: The first Surah has no Judaic influence, or at least, none that I could glean. I am using The Clear Quran edition, by Dr. Mustafa Khatab. I will also be using the Reformist translation.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2022, 07:12:46 pm by christianbethel »
When in doubt, use the 16 Words: 'We must Engineer the Destruction of Western Civilization and Tribalism, and Unite All Races Through Nobility.'

Aryan ≠ 'White'.

History is Written by the Victors.

He Who Controls the Past Controls the Future; He Who Controls the Present Controls the Past.

christianbethel

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Re: Drafting up a Jamia
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2022, 08:12:03 pm »
Juz' 30 and Surahs Two and Three are done. Sorry for the wait; I have a busy schedule.
When in doubt, use the 16 Words: 'We must Engineer the Destruction of Western Civilization and Tribalism, and Unite All Races Through Nobility.'

Aryan ≠ 'White'.

History is Written by the Victors.

He Who Controls the Past Controls the Future; He Who Controls the Present Controls the Past.

christianbethel

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Re: Drafting up a Jamia
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2022, 04:49:23 pm »
I'm about halfway done.
When in doubt, use the 16 Words: 'We must Engineer the Destruction of Western Civilization and Tribalism, and Unite All Races Through Nobility.'

Aryan ≠ 'White'.

History is Written by the Victors.

He Who Controls the Past Controls the Future; He Who Controls the Present Controls the Past.